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2. Christopher Hitchens/Frank Turek Debate
1 year ago
Debate Topic: Does God Exist?

At Virginia Commonwealth University
September 9, 2008

Moderator: Dr. Timothy Hulsey

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8 Likes

  • Andrew Torr 1 year ago
    Hitchens doesn't quite answer all the questions directed at him fully. Here are my responses:

    Where does morality come from?
    Would you want to live in a society where murder is permissible? Would such a society function? The first question explains WHY it is immoral, and the second HOW it came to be innate in us. These questions can be universally applied to any action that can be defined universally (including even a specific context).

    How did DNA come into existence by chance?
    It didn't. Nucleobases can form spontaneously from simpler molecules, and this has been repeated in laboratories. No biotic material, no lightning, no divine will. Molecules have a natural affinity for one another because of the electromagnetic force. It is purely chemistry that explains why simple genetic molecules formed. It is evolution that explains why a fraction of these now extremely long chains of molecules contain what we might call information. Bits of genetic material that work against the reproduction of the whole string are deleterious, and remove themselves from the pool of possible combinations of nucleobases. MOST of our DNA means absolutely nothing. Simple bits that do mean something exist because they happened to end up in that configuration by chance (among other possible configurations that would also work). More complex bits usually come from other simpler bits that aren't very unlikely to form. Nowhere do we encounter any astronomical improbabilities. We've been here for billions of years, there are billions of us, and there are billions of base pairs in our DNA.
    The fact that DNA is MOSTLY meaningless, and that it often mutates in ways that are harmful (most are meaningless) is a strong indication that it was not designed.
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  • Andrew Torr 1 year ago
    Regarding Turek's conclusion:

    The panda's thumb bit refers to the "just good enough" principle of evolution. It is perfect for its environment, because it has been molded to fit it. It's not "better" because it doesn't need to be. This has nothing whatsoever to do with design or purpose. Cancer and SIDS are faults unless the purpose of the designer is to inflict suffering.

    I wonder if he actually read the whole book...

    "You don't need the Bible to know right from wrong"
    A) Then why was the Bible even written?
    B) But there are certain evil actions that require faith.

    "There is a standard beyond ourselves"
    Yes. But it is not divine. It is due to the universal fact that we are mortal and capable of suffering and happiness, and that it is impossible for any of us to live and act without affecting one another. This is what society is. We have to come to some consensus about morality because we have no choice but to live in a society.

    "He has to borrow objective morality from Christianity"
    No, Christianity borrows its morality from evolution. We evolved moral standards because they're beneficial to our survival and growth.

    "Where did those come from in an atheistic worldview?"
    Not God. That's all that atheism supposes, that they don't come from God, at least the theistic God. ANYWHERE ELSE works, and most of the things he mentions can be explained by natural means (consciousness etc).

    "He rebels against the divine dictatorship"
    He WOULD rebel IF God existed.
    "Christopher in effect wants to replace God"
    That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    "We're something beyond chemicals"
    Well, then this 'something' should be detectable, because it affects us, and/or we affect it. There is no place in the brain where energy appears out of nowhere or disappears. Information does not enter the brain from any immaterial source. Consciousness is absolutely confined to the brain.

    I can't really make sense of the rest of his conclusion.
  • jim achmoody 11 months ago
    I couldn't help but remember the statements of men like Huxley and Stephen J. Gould when they acknowledged that their adamant clinging to the claims of evolution were to avoid the belief in a God to whom they would have to be accountable for--for their indulgent, immoral choices. As C.S Lewis said, the materialist asks us to believe we are the product of accidental arrangements of atoms, including our brains and the thoughts they produce--if this is true then it applies to the "reasonings" of the materialists and their claims are therefore of no more worth than those produced by those who oppose them.
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  • Mark Perry 10 months ago
    Hitchens obviously believes that being rude, cutting off response, avoiding the answering of questions, making snide comment, taking cheap shots for audience approval, demeaning his opponent and those who don't agree with him and arrogance are enough to "win" a debate. It's a shame that a man who may be as intelligent as he believes he is, didn't take the opportunity to really impart that knowledge in a precice, concise and logical way to make his points and give a real opportunity for dialog and discussion that could inform those us that perhaps are not, (especially in his mind), as educated on the content as he is. Christopher seems to think that when people act on their free will and make life horrible for others, that shouldn't be the case. If God doesn't exist as Christopher insists, then how could this nonexistent God be of any consequence to man in any way? If God doesn't exist, then how could those who he calls "religious" possibly be impacted by anything other than those chemical, naturalistic, materialistic causes for morality that are caused by nature. And if that is truly the case, then the "religious" man is not being driven by their religion, but by the forces of nature and cannot be held accountable any more so than anyother person would be.
    Hitchens simply comes across as a pissed off, arrogant psuedo intellect who is so wise that he doesn't have to give real answers to pointed questions (especially when it appears he doesn't have an answer).
    There are those of us in the world who really would like to discuss these topics with atheists without all the snide comments, cheap shots, condescension and arrogance.
    I have questions that I've thought about for years, I believe atheists might be able to answer. I'm just not up for the negativity I'm seeing here by some.
  • Zimmy Iredale 7 months ago
    Hitchens can have a negative stance or appearance in debate, that is certainly true. His negativity does not negate his logic, however. I'd recommend Sam Harris if you're looking for a slightly more positive spin on the reality of the subject matter discussed here. However positive or negative an argument is should have no bearing on how persuasive/true it might be. Frank Turek is an over-rehearsed, pseudo scientific, cliched preacher. His arguments are just plain flawed, which in my opinion is always worse than the truth. Please don't let Hitchens' argumentative style dissuade you from exploring the possibilities of reality. Please.
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